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But will they ever run at 90mph along that stretch to motivate drivers to give up their cars? I had several discussions with trainmasters back in the 80′s about always running fast on that bit of track as advertising. Just take the padding out of the Mimico – CNE schedule. Never happened of course.
@Dave. GO trains already run at 95 MPH on some sections of the Lakeshore line.
Running fast as advertising? GO also has express trains at rush hour the run all the way to union from different stations.Not all rush hour trains stop at each station.
I do thing the Metrolinx does a terrible job advertising their off peak service. Most people don’t know that they can get to downtown during the day without driving. There is all day service from Mt. Pleasant on the Brampton line, Aurora on the Newmarket line and Unionvile on the Uxbridge line. All hourly trains.
Phil: I think you missed my point. Running at 95 across the stretch next to the Gardiner passing motorists in the same direction, and being a blur to those stopped in traffic. Last time I rode the GO into Toronto, cars were passing us; what they can do, and what happens can be quite different. But you’re right about the poor advertising of service that’s in place. I’m still waiting for the long promised all day to Kitchener. Again, back in the heyday, VIA had 6 Budd runs across that route; one crew caller from Georgetown used it for commuting.
Hey Dave, its a rarity to have cars passing any go train along the Gardiner.. of course if they made a stop at Exhibition and then have to stop 7 miles later, its unlikely they will be breaking the sound barrier
I am not sure when you will see all day service to Kitchener sadly. It may happen if Metrolinx pays CN to move the Halton Sub to follow the 407 westward as was proposed so they can have the tracks between Brampton and Georgetown. Plus with the now 15 minute service on the Lakeshore lines they will be hard pressed to make Kitchener a priority
Thanks for the insight on this Phil. I normally sit on the top deck, so I doubt I’d ever notice the tie stamps otherwise.
The speed ‘issue’ is something I’ve thought about before. I saw a CN timetable a few years ago, and even routes like the Oakville Sub were littered with PSO’s.
The current trip from Toronto to Aldershot even on an express GO train takes 58 minutes, which is still only an average speed of 36mph. I’ve done simulations of a 12 pack with an MP40 tacked on the end, and managed to replicate an express trip to Aldershot in about 46 minutes. The difference is I got up to 90mph whenever possible as long as the track was straight enough. That was assuming maintenance had been done to prevent bad sections of track (no PSO’s essentially). All switches were taken at 45mph, except the USRC.
12 packs of course are a little sluggish, so I only managed to get a westbound to 90mph once I got to the Humber bridge. On regular trips, I topped out just above 70mph between Exhibition and Mimico. Eastbound express trains would be the biggest message sender to people stuck on the Gardiner.
Achieving the maximum possible speeds physics will allow with conventional train equipment and infrastructure is a cultural concept that seems to have been lost in North America. The eastern world like Japan appears to have taken ownership of that. If there’s any way to fight car culture though, it’s taking this concept seriously again (advertising helps too of course). Not only that. Faster trip times means a train could gain enough time to return back to Union for another peak service trip.
I’m not a railroader, so maybe there’s something I don’t know. I just spend a lot of time in the sim making sure the physics are accurate. I usually add 30-60 seconds of leeway between stops for unforeseen circumstances like a slow passenger or an early brake application.
Where do Go trains run at 95 MPH ? I have a hard time believing that one> I’ve never heard a detector above 7X anywhere around here for a GO.
Oh. Phil I guess you meant metric, Eh?
@snake..Canadian railroads still use MPH not metric.I have run GO trains on the GO Sub and Kingston Sub at 95.
@Daniel. The one thing that people need to remember that GO service is a commuter operation, not a service like the Acela. Its stop and go and not about speed. GO now has 15 minute service on its Lakeshore lines in off rush hour service.
WE have to stop comparing North American commuter or train service to Japan or Europe. There are huge differences between the them.
Phil, my point is that with GO’s speeds, it removes a lot of competition. I’d rather spend 2 hours driving to Hamilton than take the TTC, spend 75 minutes on the GO train, and finish my trip taking the HSR home. That’s a 2 hour trip in itself. My guess is a lot of other drivers feel the same way since the Gardiner is frequently jammed.
I remember going up the Stouffville line a couple years back, and we were trotting along at 40mph between Kennedy and Agincourt. Good for 50mph, and we weren’t even doing that. It’s nearly all straight track too, something you’d expect could at least handle 75.
I understand the disagreement. Perhaps increasing speeds wouldn’t persuade more rush hour drivers to take the GO train. I have no way of predicting that.
Hi Phil; I agree; Kitchener isn’t coming; the province is broke, and the cost of a Halton Sub flyover and minimum triple track all the way to Silver is far more than any government will provide…as opposed to promising
. Remeber Kathleen’s off the cuff promise to electrify all GO Transit; how many billion would that be? However, I still believe there is merit to running express trains to and from Oakville at 95 starting to slow at the Ex; especially to make a point to drivers along Humber Bay. It is a commuter operation, but in that one small stretch you can make quite a point about the service.It’s great what Metrolinx is trying to do, but this provinces..and country’s finances preclude the real significant improvements that need to be made; assuming that the ridiculous Windsor Toronto HST idea is already dead.
!Daniel. I know you said it was about the GO speeds and the lack of competition against cars.
We are a car driven society and if you look at most of the cars on the road at rush hour its often a single driver.
I used to watch the commuters along the 401 between Oshawa and Pickering and I used to shake my head. There is no way I could do that day after day. Toronto already has the distinction of one of the worst commutes in North America and the 6th worst in the entire world!
People drive because the GO trains are super expensive and even if it was cheaper the GO trains don’t get them to their destination.
As i said before, for GO transit its not about making the trains go faster. Its about the schedule.
Remember I operated GO trains for almost 3 years and it would be pointless for me to go 75mph to the next station, only to sit at the platform to wait until the departure time at that station.
I think what you may not be aware of is a rule that still is in play today.
Trains may NOT depart before their scheduled departure time.
The GO train is expensive for sure, so that definitely gives driving more of an edge there as well. It’d be interesting if someone did a survey to ask people if speed had any factor in why they did or did not take GO. It’s a factor for me, but then again, patience seems to be less present in myself than most people.
The idea was changing the schedules to reflect higher track speeds and overall more aggressive use of time in motion (safely of course). Not going faster between stops, yet adhering to the same schedule as now. That would be pointless as you said.
You hit the nail on the head Phil; it would be pointless to go 75mph to wait at the next station to maintain the sked. Which means the “worst case possible” sked to be reworked to a best possible speed scenario….while cutting fares by 50% because public transit will never pay for itself; the cost being a motivating factor in leaving the car at home…yadda…yadda….yadda. I won’t hold my breath bearing in mind that they’re about to add (if they haven’t already) another 12 hours to the Canadian or Super Continental or whatever they call it now to allow for more siding time, making it 36 hours (I believe) slower than 1960. Still a great trip but…….:)